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Author MPEG2Dec: Too much Sample
ugurtheorca
New comer

Joined: Apr 19, 2006
Posts: 1
Posted: 2006-04-19 10:59   
When i tried to encode my dvd movie to my pc, i received such a warning message:

MPEG2Dec: Too much Sample
Try other frame rate or change Detect/Force 24Hz flag.

What is the reason and solution?
Thanks in advance for your helps.

Regards
Ugur


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ljames


Joined: Apr 20, 2006
Posts: 8
Posted: 2006-04-20 21:31   
Try the new DVDx 2.5. It now has realtime dynamic frame rate detection built-in. Even if you choosed a wrong setting, it will try to correct it for you.


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dragongodz


Joined: Oct 03, 2001
Posts: 964
From: Australia
Posted: 2006-04-21 06:40   
though of course its not really dynamic frame rate but stupid hybrid material where you have both 23.976fps pulldowned and real 29.97fps together thats the real pain in the @$$.

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ljames


Joined: Apr 20, 2006
Posts: 8
Posted: 2006-04-21 17:04   
Yeah, it's really a pain to deal with those hybrid frame rate stuff. I did some research on this.

Ideally, there should be two frame rates: 23.97 and 23.976-pulldowned. There is no real 29.97fps. It is mathmatically a 2:3 pulldown of 23.97.

However in the real world, you can do whatever pulldown in the way you want by tagging a flag on a field(half frame). So the rate may not be 29.97fps. It can be anything between 23.97 to 47.95 for some period of time. To make things worse, the pulldown rate itself may not be consistant throughout the movie. I cannot find a better word to describe this situation. So let's just call it hybrid framerate or dynamic framerate.


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dragongodz


Joined: Oct 03, 2001
Posts: 964
From: Australia
Posted: 2006-04-22 13:39   
[quote]There is no real 29.97fps.[/quote]

sorry but i have to correct you on this. there is only 2 supported framerates for dvd, 29.97fps and 25fps. the reason being the display they output to, tv. pulldown is of course just a trick to pretend to be 29.97fps material to comply with that rule.

now you have to look at the sources aswell. a lot of dvds are of course movies. these are generally shot at 24fps. so a lot of these are of course sped up for PAL(25fps) and slowed or decimated and pulldowned to make the fake 29.97fps for NTSC.
however tv material, meaning tv shows, can and are recorded at either fps. so if you buy NTSC dvds of tv shows they can actually be real(interlaced generally of course, again because of the output target) 29.97fps material.

then you have hybrids. a good example of that is Japanese anime, specifically tv shows. because of the pressure to produce these reasonably fast you can have things like the opening and end credits in real 29.97fps but the main part of the show in 23.976fps pulldowned. producing roughly 6fps less material over a long period saves both money and time. this doesnt happen with all shows of course but with quite a few it is meant to(i live in Aus so do not have access to many such dvds but have read reports from others who do and other information on the industry sites).

[quote]So the rate may not be 29.97fps. It can be anything between 23.97 to 47.95 for some period of time.[/quote]
sorry but that is not true for dvd. NTSC dvd players are specifically made to output 29.97fps or 59.94 fields per second to be more exact. this rate does not vary.

[ This Message was edited by: dragongodz on 2006-04-22 13:40 ]

[ This Message was edited by: dragongodz on 2006-04-22 13:42 ]


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ljames


Joined: Apr 20, 2006
Posts: 8
Posted: 2006-04-23 08:37   
Yup, my comments might confuse some people. You made it more complete now. NTSC TV show DVDs have native 29.97fps. PAL DVDs are always 25fps. DVDx has no problem to deal with them.

I was talking about NTSC film DVDs, where DVDx does not handle well. Normally its native frame rate is 23.97fps. If we assume that and assume the DVD uses standard 2:3 pulldown, then we get perfectly 29.97fps output to TV. However, none of the above assumptions are true. This is what I want to say.

It is true that films are normally taken at 24fps. But after digital editing and re-formating to DVD, the native frame rate can be changed to 23.97, 24, 25, 29.97, something hybrid or something irregular.

The DVD video stream includes a special flag on each field to instruct pulldown operation, so that no matter what native frame rate is, it will always be pulldowned to 29.97fps. Irregular pulldown + irregular frame rate makes it regular again.

The problem of DVDx is that it ignores pulldown flag, so it cannot sychronize well when irregular frame rate occurs.

The pulldown flag controls whether the field (1/2 frame) will be:
1) 2:3 pulldowned from 23.97fps to 29.97fps
2) no pulldown (native 29.97fps)
3) other irregular fps pulldowned to 29.97fps (not standard 2:3 pulldown)

You are talking about case 1 & 2 and 1+2 mixture. Indeed, case 3 is also being used for various reasons and its behaviour is defined. For a DVD player, it doesn't really care which the case it is. It simply follows the pulldown flag (drop this field immediately or keep it for the next time) - that simple.



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ljames


Joined: Apr 20, 2006
Posts: 8
Posted: 2006-04-23 09:02   
I did make a miscalculation in the second post. The native frame rate is not "between 23.97 to 47.95". Should be "14.98 to 29.97" theoretically.

If there is no pulldown, frames are feeded to the screen in 29.97fps. If every frame are pulled down, then only half (14.98) is needed, because the same frame will be shown twice on the screen.



[ This Message was edited by: ljames on 2006-04-23 09:03 ]


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Jim


Joined: May 23, 2001
Posts: 1256
From: France
Posted: 2006-05-02 09:31   
Please upgrade to DVDx 2.5 Ultra Edition and keep us posted on this issue.

The frame rate/count has been improved in this release.


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kieran


Joined: Jul 31, 2006
Posts: 15
From: australia
Posted: 2006-07-31 16:20   
[quote]
On 2006-05-02 09:31, Jim wrote:
Please upgrade to DVDx 2.5 Ultra Edition and keep us posted on this issue.

The frame rate/count has been improved in this release.
[/quote]

I am using this release (2.5 Ultra) and am having no luck getting normal video out of it when using NTSC Dvd's.

I've tried two different NTSC DVDs (Roy Ayers: Live at Ronnie Scotts & New Order - A Collection) and both give the "too many samples" error. Both are detected by DVDx as 29.97Hz 720x480.

On all instances, with every single attempt with both Xvid 1.1 (codec link supplied by Jim in another post) and DivX 6.11; I get .avi files that play rapidly, with audio (played at normal speed) but it is 'cut up' with chunks of audio missing, I think to force-fit the audio to the sped-up video.
Using "Force 24Hz" makes no difference, and
"Detect Prog. 24Hz" makes no difference either. I have the "deinterlace filter" turned on, am using all DeCSS options, "Normal Quality 48 to 44kHz" audio, "Audio/Video synchronisation" is turned on.
Lame Audio is used at 224kbps - output res is 720x480 (same as source), Full screen zoom.
Codecs have used both 1 pass and 2 pass.

Please please help guys!

PAL DVDs work wonderfully, but these NTSC dvd's are a real headache!

Any hints or tips would really help!

cheers,
Kieran


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Jim


Joined: May 23, 2001
Posts: 1256
From: France
Posted: 2006-07-31 18:56   
Try to set Output Frame Rate at 23.976 and to set Detect 24Hz OFF and Force 24Hz OFF.

You can rip one of these DVD to hard drive, and open a VOB in BitRate Viewer to check the MPOEG properties (frame rate will appear).


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kieran


Joined: Jul 31, 2006
Posts: 15
From: australia
Posted: 2006-08-01 13:36   
[quote]
On 2006-07-31 18:56, Jim wrote:
Try to set Output Frame Rate at 23.976 and to set Detect 24Hz OFF and Force 24Hz OFF.

You can rip one of these DVD to hard drive, and open a VOB in BitRate Viewer to check the MPOEG properties (frame rate will appear).
[/quote]

With Detect 24Hz OFF and Force 24Hz OFF; both 23.976 and 29.97 NTSC ripping cause the output avi to play rapidly, with skipping audio.

BitRate Viewer says the DVD framerate 29.97Hz.

Any more ideas?

This is so reproducible here, that surely somebody else must be getting the same issues..


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kieran


Joined: Jul 31, 2006
Posts: 15
From: australia
Posted: 2006-08-01 13:39   
I must add, that I am using Custom Chapters with all these cases (there is no way I'd like to compress an entire disc every time to test these minor configuration tweaks!).

cheers,
Kieran


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kieran


Joined: Jul 31, 2006
Posts: 15
From: australia
Posted: 2006-08-01 14:38   
Ripping a full dvd makes no difference either, and I've tried on another (different) NTSC dvd with exactly the same results. I've changed audio and video codecs with the same result.

I've tried all NTSC dvd's with 2.51.1260 ultra on two different computers - with the same results.


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Jim


Joined: May 23, 2001
Posts: 1256
From: France
Posted: 2006-08-02 11:13   
I have a few NTSC DVDs and the other coders too and we don't have this issue.

Most DVDx users (millions' ones) have NTSC DVDs and only this issue is reported.

There's nothing against you, that's very good you report the bug but if many others would do we could reproduce, understand and fix easier.

So far only DivX 6.2.5 bug was reported but after a while, the user found it was a disk defrag issue, so please be patient we'll found out a fix.

BTW, could you print the full BitRate viewer format report so I can compare with mine?

And could you rip the DVD on your hard drive with DVD Decrypter and then retry one VOB encoding and the whole DVD if one VOB works?


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kieran


Joined: Jul 31, 2006
Posts: 15
From: australia
Posted: 2006-08-03 05:18   
Yep, I'll do that for you tonight.

I tried using DVD decrypter and loading the .IFO in directly from the hard drive: same result.

I wouldn't be so sure there was something weird going on if it was only happing on one machine, but it is happening on both machines I've tried.

I guess the only thing the two machines have in common are the DVD drives - both are LG, one is a 4163b and the other is a 4120b.

Using windows media player, the NTSC discs play fine in the computer though (through the LG drive).


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Jim


Joined: May 23, 2001
Posts: 1256
From: France
Posted: 2006-08-03 10:16   
We have recurring NTSC issues with most DVDx versions but as of 2.5, the DVD I/O was improved so it shouldn't happened a lot.

I will go deep in the code in the next coming weeks so I'll try to understand what happened and first to reproduce here (got Matrix NTSC).

But I also need to finish the DVDx web site so please be patient for this, thanks for your help.


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kieran


Joined: Jul 31, 2006
Posts: 15
From: australia
Posted: 2006-08-03 14:50   
Bitrate Viewer .vob scans of failed NTSC discs:

==================================
New Order: A Collection
-----------------------
Num. of picture read: 31
Stream type: MPEG-2 MP@ML VBR
Resolution: 720*480
Aspect ratio: 4:3 Generic
Framerate: 29.97
Nom. bitrate: 8000000 Bit/Sec
VBV buffer size: 82
Constrained param. flag: No
Chroma format: 4:2:0
DCT precision: 10
Pic. structure: Frame
Field topfirst: Yes
DCT type: Field
Quantscale: Nonlinear
Scan type: ZigZag
Frame type: Interlaced
Notes:
--------------------------

==================================

Roy Ayers: Live at Ronnie Scott's
----------------
Num. of picture read: 60
Stream type: MPEG-2 MP@ML VBR
Resolution: 720*480
Aspect ratio: 4:3 Generic
Framerate: 29.97
Nom. bitrate: 7500000 Bit/Sec
VBV buffer size: 112
Constrained param. flag: No
Chroma format: 4:2:0
DCT precision: 10
Pic. structure: Field
Field topfirst: No
DCT type: Field
Quantscale: Nonlinear
Scan type: Alternate
Frame type: Interlaced
Notes:
------------------------

==================================

Beastie Boys: Sabotage
----------------------
Num. of picture read: 93233
Stream type: MPEG-2 MP@ML CBR
Resolution: 720*576
Aspect ratio: 4:3 Generic
Framerate: 25.00
Nom. bitrate: 6500000 Bit/Sec
VBV buffer size: 112
Constrained param. flag: No
Chroma format: 4:2:0
DCT precision: 10
Pic. structure: Field
Field topfirst: No
DCT type: Field
Quantscale: Nonlinear
Scan type: Alternate
Frame type: Interlaced
Notes:
-----------------

===============================

Mindcandy Volume1: PC Demos
---------------------------
Num. of picture read: 148813
Stream type: MPEG-2 MP@ML VBR
Resolution: 720*480
Aspect ratio: 4:3 Generic
Framerate: 29.97
Nom. bitrate: 9800000 Bit/Sec
VBV buffer size: 112
Constrained param. flag: No
Chroma format: 4:2:0
DCT precision: 10
Pic. structure: Frame
Field topfirst: Yes
DCT type: Field
Quantscale: Nonlinear
Scan type: Alternate
Frame type: Interlaced
Notes:
---------------------------
==============================
Attempts which have failed:
With audio, without audio
WMV9 codec, Xvid1.1, DivX 6.11 Pro
23.976Hz, 24Hz, 25Hz, 29.97Hz, 30Hz (all with and without Detect Progr. 24Hz/Force 24Hz options), with/without Deinterlace filters, with/without audio/video synchronisation, different export resolutions, different resizing algorhythms (although I have tried most at native resolution), with and without chapters.

I have tried directly from DVDs and from DVDs ripped to HDD using DVD Decrypter.

I managed only to get the first chapter of the "New Order: A collection" NTSC DVD to rip; using the same settings for that chapter on the rest of the new order disk, or all the other disks, does not work unfortunately, and that only worked with one-pass encoding.

This is about all I can try, as there are no other options left.

-- there is also the additional bug where the last chapter on a DVD isn't ripped if you use two-pass encoding. If you create separate volumes to be exported - if the last volume is the last chapter, the first pass encoding is done - but then it is not passed to the second round. If you use a one-pass encode, there are no problems.

cheers,
kieran


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Jim


Joined: May 23, 2001
Posts: 1256
From: France
Posted: 2006-08-04 11:12   
Please note that is 25fps so might be a PAL one.

Matrix Zone 1 NTSC
------------------
Num. of picture read: 9133
Stream type: MPEG-2 MP@ML VBR
Resolution: 720*480
Aspect ratio: 4:3 Generic
Framerate: 29.97
Nom. bitrate: 7500000 Bit/Sec
VBV buffer size: 112
Constrained param. flag: No
Chroma format: 4:2:0
DCT precision: 8
Pic. structure: Frame
Field topfirst: Yes
DCT type: Field
Quantscale: Nonlinear
Scan type: ZigZag
Frame type: Interlaced
Notes:

But this is a menu, because few pictures and 4/3 and you also gave menu stream types
except for Mindcandy Volume1: PC Demos.

So we can't say nothing from this.

BV failed to read Matrix movie VOB from DVD with DVD Region+CSS Free running so I gona rip with DVD Decrypter and then try to get real movie stream data type.


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Jim


Joined: May 23, 2001
Posts: 1256
From: France
Posted: 2006-08-04 12:27   
Matrix, main PGC
-----------------
Num. of picture read: 46222
Stream type: MPEG-2 MP@ML VBR
Resolution: 720*480
Aspect ratio: 16:9 Generic
Framerate: 29.97
Nom. bitrate: 7500000 Bit/Sec
VBV buffer size: 112
Constrained param. flag: No
Chroma format: 4:2:0
DCT precision: 8
Pic. structure: Frame
Field topfirst: No
DCT type: Frame
Quantscale: Nonlinear
Scan type: ZigZag
Frame type: Progressive
Notes:

So no more clue, issue might be at DVD I/O level which we may have a look in next release or when we can get same DVDs ith sames issue.

Sorry that it can't be faster, this NTSC issue is recurring but we don't have found (yet) a powerful process to locate and fix it.


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kieran


Joined: Jul 31, 2006
Posts: 15
From: australia
Posted: 2006-08-05 08:57   
Sorry about scanning the menus, from a simple VTS_01.vob (or whatever they're called) I can't differentiate between a menu and a video.. I'll grab others for you.

If need be, I will rip a VOB to disk with DVD decrypter and FTP the file to you. Do you have an FTP server?

I am not worried about the time it takes (preferably before my 3 month LabDV account runs out ) I just want to help to get it working, like you! This will be an awesome piece of software once these bugs are ironed out!

kieran

cheers,
Kieran


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Jim


Joined: May 23, 2001
Posts: 1256
From: France
Posted: 2006-08-05 13:15   
Please email me so I'll reply FTP server credentials for uploading a VOB.

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kieran


Joined: Jul 31, 2006
Posts: 15
From: australia
Posted: 2006-08-08 08:25   
Jim: I have emailed you but got no response, please confirm that your email address is:
jim@labdv.com

thanks
Ps. is a whole dvd-decrypted disc required to get the .ifo information necessary for the chaptering.. or can I just give you the smallest .vob and you build your own .ifo from it?


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Jim


Joined: May 23, 2001
Posts: 1256
From: France
Posted: 2006-08-08 11:48   
I just sent you the FTP credentials

Uploading the whole DVD will be better but if you've not fast enough connection, first upload a VOB.


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kieran


Joined: Jul 31, 2006
Posts: 15
From: australia
Posted: 2006-08-10 16:29   
Hi Jim,

I need more space on the server! There is still about 1.2gb to go and it's full! Please free up some more room so I can finish it off.

thanks
kieran


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Jim


Joined: May 23, 2001
Posts: 1256
From: France
Posted: 2006-08-22 11:53   
I'm now workign on this damned outage from our ISP, sounds OK but I've to pass all tests on the server.

I've also seen that the FTP disc partition is almost full so I'll do some cleanup and tell you soon.

Jim


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kieran


Joined: Jul 31, 2006
Posts: 15
From: australia
Posted: 2006-08-23 14:55   
Hi Jim,

Glad to have you back!

What I had transferred now seems to be gone, should I restart the whole thing?

cheers,
Kieran


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Jim


Joined: May 23, 2001
Posts: 1256
From: France
Posted: 2006-08-24 10:19   
No just continue where you've stopped.

I've moved your first upload onto another disc.


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kieran


Joined: Jul 31, 2006
Posts: 15
From: australia
Posted: 2006-08-28 06:45   
Hi Jim!

Upload is all done.. Hopefully you can reproduce these issues at your end now!

cheers,
kieran


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gruffcamper
New comer

Joined: Jul 23, 2006
Posts: 3
Posted: 2006-09-02 00:08   
I have encountered the same problem with too many samples and have conducted a few tests. Here are the results:

Test 1:
Using 2.5.1 1260 ultra, divx pro v.6.2 (all settings on default) encoding a NTSC film. Input settings 23.976, Detect 24 hz/force 24 hz, FPU, no audio/vid sync. Output settings AVI/Divx pro one pass, resolution 320X240 BiCubic, Zoom Full, RGB24, no premiere plugin.

Result: Encoded to about 34min into the film, then I got the “MPEG2Dec: Too much Sample”. I continued to encode. Upon playback the audio was in sync until the 34 min mark where the error message occurred again.

Test 2/Results:
Same settings only with Audio/Video sync checked. Same results, audio out of sync at the 34 min mark.

Test 3:
I rolled back to DVDx 2.3 with the same settings as with test #1.

Result: Other than getting the old "auth.dill: Can't authenticate drive..." msg. everything worked great! The encode was fine with no noticeable audio/video sync issues.

I hope these none technical tests helps you find the problem.

I think it is interesting that when the "MPEG2Dec: Too much Sample" Error occurs I can continue to encode with the knowledge that everything after that point will be out of sync.

Next I will try to encode again using videora so I can play this stuff on my ipod. Perhaps in a future version you could build an Mpeg 4 conversion so a person has to only encode a film once.


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Chevro
New comer

Joined: Dec 22, 2006
Posts: 1
Posted: 2006-12-22 17:09   
Hello I have some info to maybe help clear up what is going on with the difference between 24, 23.976 and 29.97 fps.

Hollywood movies on film are shot at 24 fps.

If the framerate says NTSC Film 29.97 fps that means that they takethe 24 fps film material and show 3 frames progressive, then two frames interlaced, then 3 progressive again, then two interlaced, all the way through the movie, so it plays at the correct speed, and that north american tv's can display it properly.

Here is a better explanation for those who care:

http://divxstation.com/article.asp?aId=78

http://www.doom9.org/images/pulldownB.gif

That is why it is such a pain to convert these types of movies to progressive all the way through, and when they do the resulting framerate is 23.976 fps, which is a tiny bit slower than what it is shot at, but not noticeable.

NTSC dvd players have to convert the 23.976 fps to 29.97 to play on the tv, but it can be done on the fly by the hardware.

The reason I can here is that I'm trying to encode cars, which is 23.976 progressive NTSC Film natively, and I'm not converting it(why would I want to), but I still get the error that started this post.

[ This Message was edited by: Chevro on 2006-12-22 17:18 ]


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mcrealty


Joined: Dec 21, 2006
Posts: 16
Posted: 2006-12-22 20:37   
Got the same thing halfway through 'Fight Club'. I have it set at 23fps. I pushed okay and it is continueing, should I stop and start over changing the frame rate? Chane you change it to 'force' on the fly?

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Jim


Joined: May 23, 2001
Posts: 1256
From: France
Posted: 2006-12-24 15:21   
I'm investigating this point for weeks and it's a main in the a..!

I haven't found THE solution yet, the best litterature I found is DVD Demystified book, latest edition. And I also wrote a tool to query the film frame rate with DirectShow (while DVDx gets it from MPEG Streams in VOBs).

Official DVDs frame rate are only 30fps and 25ps, while movies are more often 24fps and NTSC is 29.97fps so a bunch of arrangement are done by DVD players, most often to play a bit faster than original and to speed up the audio. I guess this is the cause of all these troubles ; which we haven't in PAL because more likely the speed up is done in studio when creating the DVD, so it's transparent for DVDx.

But so far I'm not able to get a DVD movie, read VOBs and DirectShow info and decide if DVDx must speed up the audio (which could be done handling the pitch correctly). Sorry for that, I've spent December to include x64 code in 2.6 code and I'm not finished yet because it's not easy to cross-compile x64 code on a x86 machine. So I expect to finish this x64-x86 fusion which I guess it will be a great help to welcome Vista an Vista 64 in near future. Then I'd like to work on a few known bugs and on the way the Open menu works, while I'm still studying the frame rate issue (first understand how it's made on the DVD, then write or get appropriate code to improve DVDx encoder).

I'll keep all posted here and in labDV newsletter while all experiences and examples are welcome (I'm not in NTSC region so I've only 1 NTSC DVD to work on + Kerian upload) with a maximum of details (PowerDVD offers a good OSD info with frame rate and you may discover others tools providing accurate frame rate - the one for DirectShow a always 30fps (+ drop frame flag to adjust 29.97fps) which so far I guess it's the output one from DirectShow filter, not the input one which we may need for DVDx).


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Jim


Joined: May 23, 2001
Posts: 1256
From: France
Posted: 2007-01-07 14:23   
Kieran, I've played with your Beastie Boys DVDs awith DVDx 2.6 Ultra and DivX Pro Codec 6.4 , I don't have the "Too many samples" issue.

Input settings are:
29.97 (NTSC)
Detect prog 24Hz
Deinterlace none

Output:
Rez 720x480
Zoom Full

DivX settings (1-Pass):
Format source NRSC 4:3
Adapt to 512 width
Redim Linear (very smooth)
Deinterlace the source

The result is OK, nice picture and sound is synchro.

However I couldn't rip it all (about 28mn, and a bit more after running FixVTS on it upto 40mn - on the 58mn) but I guess this might due because the DVD isn't complete.

I guess these settings should be used for most NTSC DVDs and should works.


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nightofmares
New comer

Joined: Jan 29, 2007
Posts: 1
Posted: 2007-01-29 12:25   
i get the same error message, but the film seems to be ok. @kieran: have you ever tried to watch you result? sorry for the question if you have....

best
markus


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Jim


Joined: May 23, 2001
Posts: 1256
From: France
Posted: 2007-01-29 13:24   
@nightofmares
1- did you try the settings I suggested ?
2- with latest DivX 6.5 ?
3- how about the result with WM output ?


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